Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

hee hee do wonder they are packed so well...

there is a corollary between dictionary size and ram required...

I believed i touched on less compression as an angle to improve speed... wink
there must be a median value or a point of diminishing return...

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Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

mr_smartepants, decompression speed sufficiently decreases in the case of RAM deficit (due to swapping) and slightly when limiting factor is CPU
Take into account that PE environment occupates some RAM too

Last edited by magon (2008-12-26 20:08:11)

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

how much larger are the packs with some smaller dictionary sizes

who wants to do some speed tests -
repack some DriverPacks useing your favorite number as the dictionary size and let us know...

if we could also report the ram installed on the target machine(s) and basic pack/size info.

This is all very helpful ... Thanks guys..

PS it is probably a good idea to think of 512 as a minimum but still supported value for ram

if they have 256 meg of ram and complain about performace... well... I will disscuss it with them then wink...

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Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

DP_Graphics_B_wnt5_x86-32_812.7z:
99,648,884     1GB dictionary (as mr_smartepants wrote)
104,019,904    32MB dictionary

I have only 640 MB RAM (temporary)

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

magon wrote:

Helmi, look at last DP_Graphics !
DP_Graphics_B_wnt5_x86-32_812.7z  requires ~750MB to decompress
what size of dictionary is used?!

Are you really sure about that?

My figures come from what the 7-Zip GUI displays when you change compression modes, I always took those figures as accurate (also complies with personal experience when RAM required to compress exceeds system RAM so will will slow down considerably due to swapping, as you've also pointed out correctly).

If the packs really took that much to decompress, I would have certainly noted on my system, as I often unpack them to fiddle around with them.
My system only sports 1 GB of RAM, of which ~700 MB is in constant use already.
With a HDD that loud as mine (gonna exchange it soon anyhow) I definately notice when excessive swapping takes place wink
That has not been the case with decompressing any of the packs, yet.

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

Helmi wrote:

[Are you really sure about that?

I see memory usage in TaskManager
With my 640MB of RAM  it indicates a rise from 330 up to 1080MB  for DP_Graphics_B_wnt5_x86-32_812.7z decompression (with visible swapping )
and up to 725MB for DP_Graphics_A_wnt5_x86-32_812.7z (unsufficient swaping)

Repacked with 64MB dictionary size DP_Graphics_B_wnt5_x86-32_812.7z requires about 60MB of RAM  to decompress ( smile as it was figured in  7-Zip GUI )

Last edited by magon (2008-12-27 03:23:28)

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

OK, fair enough.  So what would be the ideal dictionary size?  What's the standard XP PC come with?  256Mb?  512MB?
I'm willing to repack and upload, but over the holidays I just don't have the time to do extensive testing.
Once we come up with a figure, this needs to get documented in the DriverPacks team threads.

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

Personally, I'd recommend at least 512 MB to run XP on, but 256 should be ok, if you don't do anything on it tongue

Anyway, I see 256 MB as the bare minimum (I think it's also the official one, below that XP will not let you install it unless you manually eidt the limit) so if we are going to change compression settings, we should not aim below that.
Anyone who is willing to run XP on less memory is either totally incompetent (unless it's the Embedded Edition maybe) or asking for pain.
In that case, we should not deny them that wink


Anyway, I just tried decompression the DriverPack Graphics A 812 myself and, according to the task manager, it only uses ~350 MB of memory (comparing before and during values)...
So I'm really not sure why our figures differ that much, magon.

This is with 7-Zip 4.62, btw.

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

i will reiterate... desktop testing is a fair place to start... but will not yield any truely useful info.

chipset drivers are not installed at PE and memory performance will likely take a hit without them.

winPE is the only valid feedback for this series of tests... (presetup.cmd)

It seems memory is loaded in relation to the dictionary size so i think half of 512...

that is multiple times the size of our largest pack...
it may be that specifiying a size larger than size of the largest pack is the point of diminishing return (meg per minute)

This is why you are each so important...
if four of you spend an hour on this it is like one of us spending four hours.
(quad core vs single core wink)

That is why each of you is the most valuable member of the team

Thanks to you all again!

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Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

Helmi wrote:

Personally, I'd recommend at least 512 MB to run XP on, but 256 should be ok, if you don't do anything on it tongue

Anyway, I see 256 MB as the bare minimum (I think it's also the official one, below that XP will not let you install it unless you manually eidt the limit) so if we are going to change compression settings, we should not aim below that.
Anyone who is willing to run XP on less memory is either totally incompetent (unless it's the Embedded Edition maybe) or asking for pain.
In that case, we should not deny them that wink

Don`t forget about W2000 users

If we want to get smaller Packs, it`s better to repack аll Graphics in another order rather then with large dictionary size
7-zip archiver gives better compression on similar files so i suggest to combine all ATI drivers into one Pack, nVidia into second and all others into third

256MB dictionary size seems me to be a more then sufficient in any case

Also I always repack all Graphics into one Pack with 64 or 128 MB dictionary size and never seen a large difference in Pack sizes smile

Last edited by magon (2008-12-27 16:03:01)

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

magon wrote:

Don`t forget about W2000 users

Dang, yes, I actually did... neutral

7-zip archiver gives better compression on similar files so i suggest to combine all ATI drivers into one Pack, nVidia into second and all others into third

We've already had numerous discussions about how splitting up the packs for the overall best.
The current method seemed the most logical to all of us because it splits HW by use, i.e., pack A has the most commonly updated cards (current ones), B all the business models (CAD etc) and C the legacy ones that are most likely never going to get updated driver ever again.
We figured, you may need only either of the packs really (but you can use all three, of course).
On old HW, you won't need A&B, on business PCs, you won't need A&C and on a gaming PC you won't need B&C.
Reason for this is if all drivers were to be placed into one pack, only a tiny update means you'll have to re-DL the whole bunch.
Some users are on a slower connection and we also don't want to have the server cap out (though unlikely).

You are of course more than welcome you repack the packs to your own liking.

Also I always repack all Graphics into one Pack with 64 or 128 MB dictionary size and never seen a large difference in Pack sizes smile

Well, that's probably because there is no such single file of nearly that size (apart maybe from DriverPacks packs with huge wavetables...).

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

magon wrote:

7-zip archiver gives better compression on similar files

Yes, by similar they mean .sys .inf .chm etc.  All of which are present in all the DriverPacks wink

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

Similar sequence of codes are in ATI`s  .sys, .dll files. The same is true for nVidia

Original 8.12 Graphic Packs occupates 62,014+97,314+84,327 = 243,655KB
but repacked ATI+nVidia+Others only 75,975+60,585+67,966 = 204,526KB (I use 64MB dictionary size insted of 1GB smile )

Last edited by magon (2008-12-28 04:57:11)

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

As I wrote in my last post, yes, we know this and it's fact and easy to understand (solid archive and all) - but we have reasons not to pack all drivers into one single archive.

You can do that all by yourself though, extract all DriverPacks and repack all files (also including .INIs) into one big 7z if you want to save space.
Just please leave DPMS alone smile

It's just not practical for DL.
Maybe it was if we offered xdelta files or somesuch... (so you really only DL those bytes that have changed within a given file)

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

I don`t think that one DriverPack for all drivers is a good idea

IMHO a number of users integrate all the Packs like me and need to DL such a superfluous size DriverPacks (at least 240-200=40MB now)
Some can use DriverPacks for 1-2-3 mashines and don`t need ATI drivers (as a example) at all

May be it would be better to provide 2 different sets for Graphic DriverPacks on DL server (and look through DL statistic)
... at least while we have no xdelta files

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

Um... no...

we provide the packs as we always have...
if you would like something else it is easy enough to do yourself...

Since you have already done this, I am sure you will agree.

this is by design wink

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Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

After reading this thread I have a few points myself if I may.....

1. Would it be worth scrapping M1 all toghether and just use either M2 or M3? Since these are faster it makes more sense to me?

2. Helmi pointed out that many folk have a slow connection so I think it would be better to still compress the drivers as much as possible to keep down the amount of space they have. Plus many people also use WPI on their installs which can use a lot of room so the less space needed by drivers the better.

I use WPI myself and with that and all the driverpacks plus 3rd party ones I can still put it all on DVD5!

3. I agree that copying to HDD before decompression is miles better, could a little command be put in it to delete the archives packs after extraction just to keep things clean?

4. Keep all the packs as seperate ones then people can get the ones they want, and if they want all of them then they can download them all just like it already is. If it aint broke dont fix it kinda thing???

Just my pennies worth guys big_smile

Stoner.

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

1. You do not have to use M1, so why bother?
There may be someone else who finds it useful so why remove something that has been working since?
Plus, SysPrep may rely on that, dunno (never used that myself so I wouldn't know)

2. The size increase by using the less memory-dependent lower compression seems to be negligible, unless you were down to single digit MBs already...
If you also include Windows updates, then you will hit the limit eventually, as these grow a bit each month.

Also, WPI could easily been "exiled" on a second DVD or a network drive, if needed.
True, breaks the completely unattended installation but you could use a second drive if you had etc.

3. Better by what?
Faster?
Yes.
Fragmenting the drive less?
No.

Also, that is exactly what the Finisher does, cleaning up the archives afterwards...

4. The new auto-updater for the DriverPacks included in BASE kinda makes this a no-brainer.
There is virtually no difference for the user if they have got all packs at least once.
If it auto-DLs one pack or a handful, doesn't matter.

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

Helmi wrote:

1. You do not have to use M1, so why bother?
There may be someone else who finds it useful so why remove something that has been working since?
Plus, SysPrep may rely on that, dunno (never used that myself so I wouldn't know)

2. The size increase by using the less memory-dependent lower compression seems to be negligible, unless you were down to single digit MBs already...
If you also include Windows updates, then you will hit the limit eventually, as these grow a bit each month.

Also, WPI could easily been "exiled" on a second DVD or a network drive, if needed.
True, breaks the completely unattended installation but you could use a second drive if you had etc.

3. Better by what?
Faster?
Yes.
Fragmenting the drive less?
No.

Also, that is exactly what the Finisher does, cleaning up the archives afterwards...

4. The new auto-updater for the DriverPacks included in BASE kinda makes this a no-brainer.
There is virtually no difference for the user if they have got all packs at least once.
If it auto-DLs one pack or a handful, doesn't matter.

At the end of the day as the saying goes "you cant please everybody".

To point 3 tho m8 yes it would be faster as for the other things it works and works well so why fix something if it aint broke kinda thing? However making improvements is always a good thing... ok im not making much sense here but I hope you know what I mean.

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

What if we harness each packs INI files as a dictionary/index to extract individual drivers? So basically we use WMI/VB/Devcon to scan what hardware is present, then match it against the pack ini file(s) and then run extraction on just those directories within the 7z file(s)?

It's really easy to write into autoit (in fact I am thinking of writing it myself) and I think it'd be a fairly quick process. So basically an m2 process without extraction of every driver to the disk? A very focused and fast install.

Oh and v3.2h of FindHWIDS is out smile

Last edited by stamandster (2009-04-13 13:28:37)

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

Only teh mass storage contains a full set of HWIDs so it will not work...
Even if we started adding them it would fail on older packs... perhaps not a big deal but...

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Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

How do we install now with m2 method? Extract all drivers to the hard drive then run devcon to scan every folder/inf for a match and tell it to install if better? We can still do something similar but with a smaller subset of files.

What about providing a db of sorts. I can port my code of scanning INF files.

Last edited by stamandster (2009-04-13 14:30:33)

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

Well, it depends whether you refer to SAD or a normal Slipstream with DriverPacks BASE...
The focus of this thread is SlipStream so i will answer assuming that...

the short answer is: We don't install the drivers with method 2... windows setup.exe does it for us.

We simply put them where windows setup can find them just before Windows runs setup.exe on the machine as part of the normal installation process.

Basicaly we pause setup, expand the driver library by two gig and resume setup.

now that windows has a complete library to use during the install it wins (almost) every time.

Some drivers absolutely will not install without their personal setup.exe running...
We use the finisher to address that.
Most drivers therefore will not have a finisher entry (and therefore will not have an INI entry...
If a driver folder does have an entry in the packs INI then that driver/folder is a problem child wink...

i hope i understood you correctly...

As far as reducing the size... i already wrote the code for that in the testing team forum...
you were/are there wink
It is resonable & feasable and likely that hwidstool code will appear as a sub option for each platform...

IE the Alpha of installbyhwidstool is already written
making it a new "Include" or Function is like adding a plugin...

Except for the GUI part... That part is always a mess to deal with...
It is some of the oldest parts that Wim wrote when he was 14,
and this was the first program that he ever wrote... wink God love him.

if you take a peak at the TO-DO list i updated yesterday you can get a fell for what i think is a priority ATM...
http://forum.driverpacks.net/viewtopic.php?id=71

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Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

I got you and you got me, definitely. I'm just thinking that it's possible to create a db/ini/xml where each HWID lives and thus extract just those folders for the drivers before you continue windows setup.

Re: Copy OEM folder contents to HD before "fake setup"?

that it the function of the install by HWIDs prep tool that will be integrated into DriverPacks BASE wink

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